A Non-Religious Discussion concerning the Existence of God

This is a fictitious (and admittedly idealistic) conversation between "Tom" (a theist) and "Bill" (an atheist) that is based on Thomas Aquinas' "Third Way" of demonstrating that God exists. I am trying my hand at writing in the Socratic tradition, if it is even somewhat comparable to Plato (or Kreeft!) I will be quite pleased. What I like about Thomas is that he simply starts with what is obvious from reality and a few steps later shows that God must exist. Enjoy!

Bill: All you have said sounds very nice, Tom, but I don't have enough faith to trust in some old man up in heaven that made everything. You'll have to do some major convincing to get me to believe - and leave religion out of it!

Tom: You have every right to demand evidence, Bill. Christianity does not ask for blind faith. So, besides religion, what would you suggest as a means of inquiry?

Bill: Well, scientific proof would be nice.

Tom: Science cannot say anything about God. Science studies repeated events in the material world. God is neither. Asking science for demonstrative proof of God is like asking a biology text to explain how your car runs.

Bill: Well what, besides religion, can say anything about God then?

Tom: Before science became so narrowminded as to only study material things it was called “philosophy.” Philosophy is an acceptable method for investigating God, for it studies all of reality.

Bill: OK, so what does philosophy have to say about God?

Tom: Well, let's start with a premise that everyone can agree upon: Things exist.

Bill: That's a pretty safe starting point!

Tom: Still, considering your naturalism, I thought it wise to make sure you trusted your senses and reasoning abilities (however incoherent it might be to do so).

Bill: Ha ha ha, very funny. OK, so things exist. Now what?

Tom: Let's begin with only one thing - a triangle. What is the definition of a triangle?

Bill: How about “a three sided, two dimensional figure”?

Tom: Sounds good. Now, suppose I went through the universe and destroyed all triangles. How would that affect the definition?

Bill: It wouldn't - triangles would still have the same definition. In fact if they didn't we wouldn't know what one was if we saw it.

Tom: Very good. So what does that tell you about the existence of triangles?

Bill: Um . . . that they don't have to exist to be triangles?

Tom: Excellent! You're well on your way to theism.

Bill: Pffffft. I think you skipped a step or two.

Tom: You are correct of course. Let's move on. So far we have discovered that triangles do not have to exist. That means they are not “necessary.” In philosophical terms, “necessary” means something that necessarily exists. It cannot come into, nor go out of, existence.

Bill: And triangles are not necessary because they can exist or not.

Tom: Yes. And it tells us something about a triangle's essence - it's “definition” so to speak.

Bill: I thought we already defined what a triangle is.

Tom: Truly, and what did we say in this definition regarding existence?

Bill: We didn't say anything about it in our definition.

Tom: And why not?

Bill: Because . . . because existence is not part of its definition?

Tom: Correct again. What would happen if existence were part of a triangle's definition?

Bill: Then . . . they would have to exist, if they were triangles.

Tom: Very good. So you see then that we cannot simply define something into existence. For example, I could not define a unicorn as “a horse with a magic horn in its forehead that exists.”

Bill: Right, because then unicorns would just pop into existence. But they don't.

Tom: You've got it. Now - let's go back to triangles. Suppose that all triangles were in fact destroyed, could one come into existence?

Bill: Sure, I could draw one.

Tom: For the sake of brevity I will not be considering the impossibility of drawing an actual triangle, nor, for the sake of this illustration, discuss why drawing a triangle is not really creating one (in the ex-nihilo sense).

Bill: Thank you . . . ?

Tom: Certainly. Now, what would drawing a triangle do to its essence?

Bill: Nothing - there would just be one.

Tom: You mean that what a triangle is (its essence) would not change, but what a triangle is (its essence) would come to exist?

Bill: Yes. That is exactly what I meant.

Tom: So what does that tell us about the essence and existence of triangles?

Bill: Phew. Um . . . that their essences must come to exist?

Tom: Close. That essence and existence are not necessarily the same thing.

Bill: Oh. OK, that makes sense - they couldn't be separate if they were the same thing.

Tom: Exactly. And what would happen if essence and existence were the same thing?

Bill: You'd have one of those definitions that says, “and exists,” at the end.

Tom: Close enough for now. OK, let's sum up what we have so far: Unnecessary things (like triangles) exist, but they do not have to. Therefore essence and existence must not necessarily be the same thing.

Bill: Is that all we've got so far? Took long enough!

Tom: I am just making sure we don't miss anything. Now, you said a minute ago that if all triangles went out of existence you could make one come to exist (so to speak).

Bill: Yes, I could draw one.

Tom: But what would be drawing you?

Bill: Huh???

Tom: Analogical predication according to mode of being, my dear William. What I mean is this - while you are giving existence to the triangle, what is giving existence to you?

Bill: What do you mean? Nothing is, I already exist.

Tom: Yes, you do exist. But do you exist necessarily?

Bill: You mean is existence part of my definition - my essence?

Tom: Precisely.

Bill: Well, I guess not.

Tom: You don't have to guess. Have you always existed?

Bill: No.

Tom: Could you cease to exist?

Bill: Yes.

Tom: Then is existence part of your essence?

Bill: No.

Tom: And therefore . . .

Bill: Something else is drawing me?

Tom: Exactly!!! Can you feel the yawning chasm of theism opening up beneath you?

Bill: Hold on there professor. I exist because my parents made me, and their parents made them, and so forth all the way back to . . . oh. That answer won't really help will it?

Tom: No, but its failure is greater than you realize. There is of course the problem of an infinite number of causes regressing into the past (which you might say is impossible), but even more destructive is the fact that your parents are not the primary cause of your existence.

Bill: They're not?

Tom: If your parents ceased to exist would you?

Bill: Not necessarily.

Tom: So your parents . . . ?

Bill: OK, I got it. They can't be causing my existence because then I'd go out with them.

Tom: And that's not even the biggest problem.

Bill: (sighing heavily . . . )

Tom: Is existence part of your parent's essence? Or their parent's? Or whatever slime you believe your ancient ancestors came from?

Bill: Hey, that's not nice.

Tom: It's not my theory.

Bill: Whatever. OK, so . . . no, it's not. So you're saying that all people are unnecessary?

Tom: All finite people. But we're getting ahead of ourselves. What thing in the universe is necessary?

Bill: Well, if the universe is all there is, and it began with the Big Bang, then everything came into existence at once. Scientists say that someday there will be a Big Crunch and everything will be destroyed. So according to you - nothing is necessary.

Tom: Do you see a problem with that statement?

Bill: Well, if things exist that don't have to then something else has to give them existence. If everything in the universe doesn't have to exist then something else has to . . . Wait, what if everything just gives everything else existence?

Tom: You mean like “A” gives existence to “B” which gives existence to “C” and so forth?

Bill: Yes, but that's like your slime question earlier. I see that it can't just go on forever - you still need something to cause “A”. So what if “Z” causes “A”? Then everything is accounted for!

Tom: Not everything.

Bill: Why not? It would be "A through Z" in a perfect circle of “existence-giving.”

Tom: But what caused the circle?

Bill: Um . . . Dang it! Wait, what about itself?

Tom: Nothing can cause itself, Bill, that's a contradiction. In order for something to cause itself to exist it would already have to be existing in order to cause.

Bill: OK, OK. I see where you're trying to go with this.

Tom: Delightful, why don't you tell me?

Bill: If the whole universe is made up of things that exist but don't have to then something else has to give the whole universe existence. I suppose you're going to say God did it.

Tom: Interesting supposition, but you brought it up - not me. We agreed not to discuss religion though, so let's stick to philosophy for now and just see where we are. If there has to be some thing causing all other things to exist what sort of a being would that be?

Bill: An old man with a beard up in heaven?

Tom: (rolls eyes . . .)

Bill: Sorry. OK, well it couldn't be just another unnecessary being because that would just push the question back another step. So it would be . . . necessary.

Tom: Meaning . . . ?

Bill: Its essence and its existence were . . . wow, the same thing I guess! It's definition would be “existence”!

Tom: Close enough. Now consider this: a thing's essence is what limits it to the kind of existence it has. That is why dogs are not cows and rocks are not trees. Their existence is limited to what they are.

Bill: OK, that makes sense.

Tom: So, what would a necessary being be limited to?

Bill: Its essence. Wait . . . its existence? Somehow that doesn't make sense.

Tom: That is because existence's limit comes from essence.

Bill: Then pure existence would be . . . unlimited.

Tom: Precisely. An unlimited being cannot have any limit properly attributed to it. That is why when we say things about unlimited being we must either negate them (in-finite, im-mutable, im-passable, im-mense, etc.), or if we say things positively of unlimited being we must understand them in an unlimited way (goodness, love, mercy, wrath, knowledge, etc.). So what would be true of an unlimited being with regard to its power?

Bill: It would be . . . unlimited power?

Tom: Yes, or “all-powerful” - what theologians call “omnipotent.” And what would be true of an unlimited being with regard to its presence?

Bill: It would also be unlimited.

Tom: Yes, what theologians call “omnipresent.”And what would be true of an unlimited being with regard to its relation to time?

Bill: Also unlimited . . .

Tom: Yes, but time requires a limit, that's why unlimited being would be “eternal.” So you see, not only does the existence of unnecessary things require a necessary thing, we can actually discover quite a bit about that necessary thing.

Bill: This "thing"is starting to sound familiar.

Tom: It should.

Bill: And it just happens to be the God the Bible talks about.

Tom: I haven't used "God" or "Bible" once in this discussion. But since you insist on bringing up religion in our purely philosophical discussion, I will allow it. You know, the apostle Paul said that God's invisible attributes were made obvious to all people through His creation. Perhaps this is what he was referring to.

Bill: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I suppose Paul came up with this argument too?

Tom: Aristotle actually came pretty close about 400 years earlier - although he did not have a Bible to compare to his god.

Bill: Well, just because this argument sounds good that doesn't mean I have to believe in God.

Tom: Yes. Unfortunately Paul said that too.

Aristotle: Circa 350 B.C. said, "Our present position, then, is this: We have argued that there always was motion and always will be motion throughout all time, and we have explained what is the first principle of this eternal motion: we have explained further which is the primary motion and which is the only motion that can be eternal: and we have pronounced the first mover to be unmoved." (Physics, Book VIII, chapter 9)

The Apostle Paul: Circa 65 A.D. said, " What can be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse. . . . Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling mortal human beings or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles. . . They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator." (Romans 1:19-25)